Friday, October 31, 2008

In My Father's House, There are Many Podiums

I would just post a link, but then you wouldn't follow it, and wouldn't read this article:

from http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3130

Alternate Voices

by Nate Oman

One of the more interesting pieces that I have read on Mormon intellectual life is Armand Mauss’s essay “Alternate Voices,”Sunstone April 1990. The article was written in response to a General Conference sermon by Elder Oaks of the same name. (Also worth reading here.) Brother Mauss’s article in its entirety is reproduced here with the kind permission of Sustone and Brother Mauss.

“Alternate Voices: The Calling and its Implications”

By Armand L. Mauss

In recent Sunstone symposia and LDS discussion groups, much attention has focused on Elder Dallin Oaks’s remarks about “alternate voices” in general conference last year. I would guess that most of the Saints had no idea who or what he was referring to. Even among the participants in the “unsponsored” literature and discussion groups, there has been no clear consensus about the meaning or the implications of what Elder Oaks said. Some have found it ominous or at least condescending; some have seen it as a harmless, matter-of-fact clarification of leadership attitudes. Some have even taken encouragement from the fact that it was not more specific and constraining. For me the conference address and ensuing discussion have provided the occasion for reflection upon the past twenty-five years of my own intellectual activity in the Mormon arena.

Historical Perspective

To begin with, an historical perspective seems helpful. We have always had “alternate voices” in the Church. I am not referring to apostates (nor was Elder Oaks, I believe) but to certain loyal and thoughtful saints of independent mind who would occasionally question conventional doctrine or policy–and do so publicly. Before about 1940, such public discussions frequently took place in official Church magazines and even among the general authorities themselves. For evidence of this contention, one has only to consult early issues of the Improvement Era, Contributor, and Juvenile Instructor, or to review the careers of figures like B.H. Roberts. Even the LDS Institute program once provided a forum for discussion and sometimes honest disagreement among the devout and intellectually cultivated scholars so often found in the ranks of the Institute faculty in those early days.

In many ways, the Church was like one big family during its first century or so. This was especially true of the general authorities, who constituted a rather small circle of relatives and boyhood friends. Their families shared impeccable pioneer credentials and intimate knowledge of each other. When Orson Pratt disagreed publicly with Brigham Young about doctrine, they had been through too much together for Brother Brigham, even as president, to question basic loyalty and commitment of Brother Orson. When B.H. Roberts and the young Joseph Fielding Smith disagreed publicly about evolution, neither risked suspicions of heresy, apostasy, or disloyalty to the Brethren. When Heber J. Grant as president of the Church disagreed publicly with Apostle Reed Smoot over the League of Nations, it probably never occurred to President Grant to question Elder Smoot’s loyalty after their shared travail in 1903. Even when J. Golden Kimball regularly embarrassed some of his colleagues, they knew, after all, that he was “Hber’s boy.” His rock-solid Mormon heritage was more important than his idiosyncrasies in assessing his reliability.

It is a different church today for reasons that are quite understandable. As in any organization, rapid growth and complexity have brought increasing reliance on centralization and standardization (now called “correlation”). Some of the general authorities might still be related to each other, but not nearly so many and certainly not so closely. Recruitment to their ranks comes increasingly from outside the founding families and even from outside North America. Some of the recruits to general authority rank have come up through the Church civil service bureaucracy (especially the Church Education System, C.E.S.) where they have had opportunities to demonstrate their loyalty, but not by questioning “the Brethren,” to be sure.

The fact is that the presiding brethren are simply not in a position to know each other (especially the Seventy) as intimately as they once did, so they cannot afford to be as tolerant of disagreements, especially open disagreements, even among themselves, as they once were. Their relationships (except the few that are lifelong) are less familial in nature and more bureaucratic. They cannot predict or control as confidently as they once could where such disagreements will end or what the implications will be. The George P. Lee case is a particularly painful illustration of the difficulty that the Church leaders face today in truly knowing and understanding each other’s thoughts and feelings intimately. Nor can they know the ordinary Saints as well as their predecessors could; they cannot visit the wards and stakes with any appreciable frequency.

In such a situation, disagreements and serious questions within the ranks (either of the leadership or of the Church as a whole) can no longer be readily contained or managed by resort to family bonds, shared biographies, or mutual reliance on well-known ultimate commitments. Nor can the leadership enjoy the luxury of indulging their individual opinions and disagreements in public. The confidence of the membership and of the local leadership in the general authorities can no longer depend even partly upon a personal awareness of the hearts, minds, backgrounds, or individual charisma of those brethren. That confidence must now rely upon their formal ecclesiastical roles and callings as “prophets, seers, and revelators.”

The spectacle of public disagreements among these distant prophets, on any subject, carries the risk of undermining grassroots confidence in their instructions on any other subject. Thus, such disagreements as they have (which, I do not doubt, are many and vigorous) must be carried out entirely behind closed doors and settled ultimately by top-down directives. Necessary as all that might be in a modern church so “correlated” and so conscious of public relations, it gives the largely false appearance of a monolithic and intellectually homogeneous leadership. To the extent that such homogeneity seems necessary, we cannot expect today’s Church leadership to recruit ( at any level) the independent intellectuals and scholars of the kind we once saw in Elders B.H. Roberts, John A. Widtsoe, James E. Talmage, or Joseph F. Merrill. Different skills, talents, and training are needed for today’s corporate Church leadership.

The Modern Division of Labor

Today’s “alternate voices” are found no longer among the general authorities but instead among an amorphous and informal body of independent scholars and intellectuals. While sometimes called a “community,” and including many close friends of long standing, this body is probably too large, too dispersed, and too diverse to qualify as a real community. It is tied together mainly through the reading and writing of a common literature published in various “unsponsored” books and articles, and through participation in such gatherings as those of the Mormon History Association and the Sunstone Symposium. The religious beliefs and intellectual commitments of its members cover a broad spectrum. Its numbers include LDS and RLDS members, non-members, devout believers, doubters, and apostates; but in my experience the great majority are active, loyal, and committed Latter-day Saints who are willing to tolerate diversity and ambiguity in the quest for truth, intellectual integrity, and fuller understanding.

This collection of “alternate voices” has an important part to play in the life of the Church and of each ward, even when it is worrisome to leaders. Many feel direct spiritual calls to offer their “alternate voices” on occasion. Such calls are clearly implied in Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28, especially in the passage about being “anxiously engaged in a good cause . . . of their own free will.” It is important to emphasize, though, that these are not Church calls, which can come only through priesthood leadership. We must never confuse our personal spiritual gifts, talents, and calls (whether of an intellectual or any other kind) with callings in Church leadership. We should feel free, in a candid but respectful and constructive spirit, to offer our ideas and suggestions to Church leaders from the greatest to the least, whether they ask us for them or not, for that is what we are called to do. Yet we must never aspire to displace those leaders, to undermine their influence and authority, or in any wa to interfere with the exercise of their callings and responsibilities as they understand them.

Such a de facto and tacit separation of responsibilities between Church leaders and “alternate voices” actually works out quite well in practice, as long as there are not excesses on either side (as there sometimes are). The leaders of the Church, including the prophet and president, neither seek nor receive revelation in a vacuum. It is implicit in Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9 that divine inspiration and revelation come primarily in response to well-considered proposals that we take to the Lord. I think that this is as true for the prophet as for the rest of us. I have always appreciated the care and precision in President Kimball’s announcement of the dramatic 1978 revelation on extending the priesthood, where he explicitly spoke of having received confirmation of a policy decision.

Where do Church leaders get the ideas for the proposals that they take to the Lord in search of their revelatory confirmations? We must assume that they get their ideas from many sources, both within and without the Church. Some ideas no doubt come to them from the Saints and leaders in the rank and file; some from “pilot projects” started on local initiative; some from sponsored research; some perhaps from the business world; some even from their wives and children. The “alternate voices” of LDS intellectuals simply add, in a unique way, to the supply of ideas available to Church leaders as they undertake to formulate proposals to take to the Lord. That is an important function for these “alternate voices” and is perhaps the main mission to which they are called. I have had plenty of reasons to believe that our leaders often consider these “alternate voices,” and that their proposals to the Lord are sometimes informed by what they read and hear from these sources as well as from others.

I, for one, appreciate this de facto “division of labor” between Church leaders and “alternate voices.” Such a distinction is blurred in some of our sister Christian churches which maintain “house intellectuals” hired and salaried primarily to insure that official Church doctrines, policies, and pronouncements are based on extensive scholarly research and made intellectually palatable to the world. To the extent that “alternate voices” depend for their livelihood and professional recognition primarily on Church largesse, they run a constant risk of being muted, moderated, and compromised by organizational imperatives and internal political pressures. (I hasten to add that they do not always succumb to such pressures, as we can see from the number of outstanding “alternate voices” that somehow manage to maintain distinguished and independent careers at BYU; but they are often uncomfortable). While many Mormon intellectuals might enjoy the luxury of basking a little more often in the celestial warmth of offcial approbation, they are far better off maintaining their separate callings and their intellectual independence.

The Church leaders, for their part, also benefit from this separation. For one thing, they need not feel obliged to evaluate and respond to every idea, proposal, or criticism coming from among the “alternate voices.” These are not products that they have paid for, and they need not make “use” of them in order to get their “money’s worth” from an investment in professional services (as they might feel obliged to do, say, in the case of the professional consultants whom they occasionally hire). Second, the Church leaders cannot be held accountable for any of the public writings or speeches of “alternate voices” as they might be for the public utterances of “house intellectuals” (and as they once were for the dissident voices publicly expressed from their own ranks).

In sum, Church leaders can get on with the daily business of running a large and complex world organization, with all the pragmatic compromises and adjustments implied in that enterprise, but without having to deal with constant interruptions from internal intellectuals intensely concerned with ideas but lacking either experience or responsibility in practical affairs. My experience in academia convinces me that (with occasional sterling exceptions) intellectuals as a class suffer from a trained incapacity for successful administration. I know exactly what William F. Buckley means when he says that he would rather be governed by the first 500 people in the Boston telephone book than by the Harvard faculty! By all means, let us foster complete freedom of expression, even in the Church, for all kinds of “alternate voices” (academics or not); but let “idea-people” do what they do best–offer creative ideas and informed critiques of the status quo–and leave the practical affairs of Church governance to thosewho bear the awesome responsibility for it!

Those of us who would take seriously and conscientiously the calling of “alternate voices,” however, must be prepared to accept the implications of so doing, whether we would be listeners or speakers in such a challenging enterprise. Even as listeners we are responsible for the evaluation of what we hear. Intelligent evaluation, especially in spiritual matters, is not possible without a considerable personal investment in studying, both widely and deeply, in prayer and in meditation. The hearer (or reader) of “alternative voices” who is not willing to do all this is only a dabbler and is far better off sticking with the Standard Works and the correlated lesson manuals.

People who read Sunstone and other “alternate” sources mainly to make mischief (and I know a few) are intellectual adolescents. They are searching less for understanding than for cheap shots at traditional shibboleths, or for juicy and scandalous tidbits about Church leaders past and present. I have one more caveat (with apologies to Dante!) for those who would be conscientious listeners of “alternate voices”: Abandon certainty all ye who enter herein! Never again will you enjoy the immunity to doubt and ambiguity that went with your previous life. But then the ability to live with perpetual ambiguity is also a trait that distinguishes adults from adolescents.

Decalogue for Dissenters

My remarks in this final section are directed mainly to those who would undertake to join the ranks of “alternate voices” as speakers, not just as listeners. These include, I hasten to add, not only academics or other professional intellectuals but anyone who would aspire to be efficacious in offering alternative ideas or counsel to the saints and their leaders at any level, whether in the pages of Dialogue and SUNSTONE, in ward council, priesthood quorums, Relief Society, or Sunday School.

I would like to share ten principles that I have learned, sometimes painfully in the breach, during the past twenty-five years from my own efforts to offer an effective “alternate voice” at various forums and occasions. As a rhetorical devise, I will use the imperative tone appropriate for a decalogue; I apologize in advance if the tone also seems imperious in places. Also, since my efforts have taken place in the context of an ultimate commitment to the LDS faith, some of the following principles will be less applicable to those who don’t share that commitment.

1. Seek constantly to build a strong personal relationship with the Lord as the main source and basis for your own confidence in the alternate voice you are offering. We often have to do without the Church’s approval, but we need the assurance of the Lord’s.

2. Do your homework before you speak up. We must be sure that our knowledge of the scriptures, of history, and of other relevant data on a given matter will bear up well under scrutiny and under efforts at rebuttal. Otherwise, our offerings will be exposed as unreliable, we will lose credibility as intellectual leaders or teachers, and we will be suspected even by our sympathizers as mere malcontents. No one expects infallibility, but we must know whereof we speak, especially if we espouse an unpopular or untraditional idea.

3. Relinquish any and all aspirations (or even expectations) for leadership callings in the Church. Actually, that is wonderfully liberating. In any case, stake and ward leaders, to say nothing of general authorities, rarely call people to powerful positions who are suspected of too much “independent thinking.” To be sure, the ranks of “alternate voices” have provided occasional examples of bishops, stake presidents, and Relief Society leaders, showing that there may be some happy exceptions to this generalization, but don’t count on that. If you have a career in C.E.S. or in any other Church bureaucracy, don’t expect approval or promotion to accompany your identification as an “alternate voice.”

4. Endure graciously the overt disapproval of “significant others,” including family members, but never respond in kind. Lifelong friends and old missionary companions may sever (or reduce) friendship ties when they learn that you are one of”those.” They simply cannot understand what your “problem” is. If such reactions prove especially crucial in your case (e.g., if your marriage is threatened), you will have some tough choices to make.

5. Pay your “dues” as a member of the Church. Pay your tithing, make clear your willingness to serve wherever called, and do your best to get your children on missions. Try as hard as anyone to “keep the commandments.” You still probably won’t get much Church recognition, but you will win over a few who once looked on you with suspicion. More important, you will make it difficult for your critics to dismiss you as an apostate, for all will see that “thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death” (D&C 121:44).

6. Be humble, generous, and good natured in tolerating ideas that you find aversive in other Church members, no matter how “reactionary.” As “alternate voices,” we cannot complain when we are ignored or misunderstood if we respond with contempt toward those whose ideas we deplore. Besides, if we have any hope of educating them, we have to start where they are and treat them with love and tolerance. No one is won over by being put down, especially in public. Whether in our writing or in our exchanges during Sunday School classes, we must try to be gracious as well as candid (difficult though it be on occasion) and always remember to show forth afterward “an increase of love toward him whom thou has reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy” (D&C 121:43).

7. Show some empathy and appreciation for Church leaders, male and female, from the general level down to the local ward and branch. Anyone who has ever held a responsible leadership position knows how heavy the burdens of office can be, especially in callings like bishop, Relief Society president, and stake president (to say nothing of apostle), in which the decisions made can affect countless numbers of people for good or ill. We may privately deplore the poor judgment, the unrighteous dominion, the insensitivity, and even the outright ignorance of some leaders. Yet, after all, they are, like us, simple mortals doing their best according to their lights. Some of them sacrifice a great deal for no apparent benefit, and all are entitled to our support, and occasionally our praise, whenever these can reasonably be given. When they do something outrageously wrong, they need our sympathy even more. “There but for the grace of God . . . ” etc.

8. Do not say or do anything to undermine the influence or legitimacy of Church leaders at any level. They have their callings and prerogatives, and we should not step forth to “steady the ark” by publicly offering our alternative leadership. Please don’t misunderstand: I am not advocating silent submission in the face of official stupidity. There is much that we can do without playing the role of usurper. When we write for publication, let us by all means criticize policies, practices, or interpretations of doctrine; but let us not personalize our criticisms with ad hominem attacks. They are not only discourteous and condescending, but quite unnecessary. (They can also get you “ex-ed.”)

We should feel free, though, to seek private interviews and/or correspondence with Church leaders, including our own bishops, in which we can offer, in a spirit of love and humility, our constructive criticisms and suggestions. If these are ignored, then at least we have exercised our callings as “alternate voices,” and we have done so without sowing seeds of contention. We are not responsible for how a given leader carries out his or her stewardship. Yet we are not powerless, which leads to the next principle.

9. Take advantage of legitimate opportunities to express your “alternate voices” and to exercise your free agency in “alternate” ways within the LDS church and culture. We must never lapse into a posture in which we just sit and gripe. If we find the correlated lesson manuals to be thin fare, it is up to us as teachers to enrich them with relevant supplementary material (including some “alternate voices”). If we are not teachers, then at least we are obligated as class members to speak up knowledgeably and enrich the class, not simply boycott it.

If we find a general intellectual famine at Church, then we are free to start study groups of our own to supplement the Church fare for those who feel the need. Some of our more conservative leaders may not like such unsponsored study groups, but they have no right to forbid them, and they seldom try (but don’t forget principles 2, 3, and 4). In short, even if we are not bishops or general authorities, and even if we are ignored by those who are, there is much constructive that we can do with our “alternate voices”: “For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as they do good they shall in nowise lose their reward” (D&C 58:28).

10. Endure to the end. The calling of “alternate voice” is too important for us to allow ourselves either to be intimidated by the exercise of unrighteous dominion or to be silenced by our own fatigue. “And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not” (Galatians 6:9; D&C 64:33). I have seen many a rich harvest in people’s lives from seeds planted by “alternate voices,” and I hope to live to see many more.

Though I have often failed to comply with all ten of these principles, I have learned from my failures as well as from my successes that the likelihood of influence and efficacy for “alternate voices” depends heavily upon compliance with those principles. They also add up to a personal philosophy that has yielded me a great deal of inner peace in my years of coping with the predicament so common among “alternate voices”: commitment to the religion but a feeling of marginality in the Church. That is my testimony.

An Epilogue: According to Brother Mauss, shortly after this article appeared in April 1990, he recieved an short unsolicited letter from Elder Oaks. The letter was extremely short — three lines — but it complimented Brother Mauss on his piece and approved of it’s interpretation of Elder Oaks’s conference address. The original of the letter is now housed in the correspondence file for 1990 of the Armand Mauss Papers deposited in the Utah State Historical Society.

Saturday, October 25, 2008

"Christian art? Art is art, painting is painting, music is music, a story is a story. If it's bad art, it's bad religion, no matter how pious the subject. If it's good art--and there the questions start coming, questions it would be simpler to evade.

-Madeline L'Engle
Walking on Water: Reflections on Faith and Art,
ch. 1

Wednesday, October 15, 2008

Three Grand Keys (by English)




View full size for explanation.

English's blog.

Thursday, October 9, 2008


Lolcat by Brian.

Saturday, October 4, 2008

Facing Facebook, part 4

Guy in England replies:

Sorry about the lateness of response. I have been super busy as of late.

On the face of it, yes Masons do in a roundabout way claim that they protect the ways of King Solomons temple. However, taking things from a New Testament point of view, this is not necessarily needed.
You write something very interesting, '...among other things'. Now I think the 'things' you have not mentioned are of HUGE importance to the practice of Mormons and how and why I do not believe it to be: a) a fuller, deeper, more complete version of the Gospel as spelled out by Christ Jesus. b) Believe it divinely inspired by God.

First off, regardless of whether you have met masons who are 'pleasant enough' does not mean your common practices sound. As you may know, some of the symbolism of the masons is to be frank quite occultic. Looking at what Joseph Smith (who was a high up freemason) incorporated into your temple buildings is nothing short of praise and declaration to his apparent Christianity sitting side by side with Egyptian and other satanic belief. For example, the temple you fellas have in Salt Lake City is full to the brim of what is widely accepted as heathen symbols. For example you the all-seeing eye (which you Americans have on your dollar notes). This is known as the Egyptian God, Eye of Horus, and his father Osiris. I.e 'the creator'. This is recognised by the satanists as the eye of Lucifer. Why on earth would a supposed Christian sect have this on a building so holy that only about 1 in 10 Mormons are eligible or choose to go?

Further to this, on that same temple you have the ursa major, the big dipper. A seven starred contellation, known by the Egyptians as the Dragon of the seven stars, further known to the 'Dragon of the Seven Stars', later known as the Seven Headed Beast. This may look familiar to you as what is said in Revelations. The Seven Headed Beast being the enemy of the church of God.

You have inverted pentagrams- this is the symbol of Satan.the upside down pentagram relates to the sinister goat, known by occultists as a manifestation of the devil.

Also, something that has similarities to satanists, Mormons and masons alike... The secret handshake. You probably won't make much of this but I do not remember reading anything about this in the Bible. But do you not think this is more than a coincidence that this is now introduced into your cult as a means of getting into heaven. Is it not the case you need a handshake to get into heaven or something. (Or have I got that completely wrong?)

Also when Smith was killed, he was found with an accultist talisman. Need I say anymore!!

If this man is meant to be the mouthpiece and prophet of God, a man meant to be trusted to deliver the world the new Gospel, then I am flabbergasted to say the least!! If it is the case that the wonderful Lord God sent a prophet to us who was a superstitious, occultist, dark arts practicing, satan-leaning, pagan worshipping then I really do despair!! That being the case, rather God is somebody that is really akin to satanic dogmatism and is in a sense polytheistic, OR Joseph smith isn't a prophet, and he is just some fella who tells tall tales about the God of the bible.

Mate, the onus is on you to really dig deep into the rudiments of what you believe. However, if you are content with what you follow, and you want to continue to feel unchallenged then stay where you are. Remember though, Jesus calls you to trust Him and come out from that boat. I really don't want you to go in a corner and harden your defences and in essence be really 'anti-Louie', just use your head, be sensible and do not rely on that 'burning in your bosom' (that I have read so much about'.

What I would say is read up on freemasonry yourself. You will see it is not as cool/Biblical as you may first think. I mean c'mon, why would a so called Christian association have so much symbolism relating to Satanism and Egyptian ancient beliefs and polytheism? I think the answer is obvious. And why on earth would your ceremonies need to be secret?

I think the most blatant thing the mormons do during their temple endowment (if that is the right word) is they play out the part of the devil and I think Adam and Eve. Then they mock putting on the apron that relates to what the Devil does!! Unbelievable.

When I said 'odd' it was fitting into the context of what I was saying. I didn't write it as a question btw.

Also, I'm better than calling what you believe odd. To emphasise this point, I am from a Charismatic church, (Pentecostal to be precise) in the north of England. Therefore, I know the meaning of being different to the what the norm may be.

TR replies:

Before we go further into this, I just want to ask that if you have any questions about specific temple practices or symbology that you send them to me in a private message. We don't like publishing them or discussing them publicly for several reasons, one of which is that it ALWAYS gets misinterpreted and causes misunderstanding. The other reason is that some of what you mentioned is not true or is only half-true, and I can't exactly set the record straight without saying even more details of the temple ceremony.

Also, before I offer another perspective on this, I want to thank you again for asking me. Since Mormons (including me) are unwilling to share many details of the temple, a curious person will always find another source, and that source is usually an anti-Mormon one. I hope you won't take offense to me saying this, but a lot of what you said sounds like the sort of thing I used to read in anti-Mormon literature that was published by many Christian churches in Scotland while I was a missionary there. I'm glad to have this opportunity to refute what people have said to misrepresent the temple ceremonies.

Another word about the Masons. That they are "pleasant enough" is an understatement. The Masonic Lodge of Salt Lake City runs and operates the Salt Lake Shriner's Hospital, which is a hospital that treats burns and bone diseases for children free of charge. Thousands of children have been helped there for free, and they are a non-profit organization, not a business. To say they are Satanic is misguided at best. "By their fruits ye shall know them". Looking at the fruits of the Masons here, I see them as an exclusive and eccentric but extremely charitable group that God smiles upon. I don't buy this Satanic cult propaganda. The first requirement of becoming a mason is belief in God or Deity. And to say they are unaware that they are Satanists unfair and ignorant, in my opinion.

There is a lot of content in your post. I can't tell which things you want responses to, but I will do my best.

"Among other things"

What I meant by this was beyond being keepers of Solomon's temple rites, they are a fraternal organization that get together to eat dinner, talk, have barbecues, and do other things that friends or clubs do together. And as I mentioned, they are also a non-profit charitable organization who have blessed the lives of millions of children throughout the country and provided an example of what it means to be compassionate Christians. As to whether protecting Solomon's Temple's rites is needed, I will not argue this point. I believe it was needed. You don't. Fair enough?

"Playing the devil"

What is wrong with depicting the devil? One of the most beloved paintings in Christian art is of Christ overcoming Satan:

http://www.valtorta.org/images/denyingsatan.jpe
which depicts the devil! Was Bloch a Satan worshipper because he depicted the devil? Of course not.

A word that I heard a lot in your response was "Satanic" or similar words. I will try to address what you have said about many of the symbols being Satanic.

The whole point of a symbol is that it carries meaning to those who use the symbol. A swastika to a Buddhist means peace, whereas a swastika to a westerner means Nazism. When a Buddhist uses a swastika, does that mean he is secretly a Nazi? No. For one thing, the symbol belonged to Buddhism before it was borrowed by Hitler as a symbol for the Nazi party.

Likewise, many of the symbols we use have more than one meaning depending on whether it is being used by a Mormon, a Mason, or an Occultist. The number seven for example, is used many times in the New Testament. To the Hebrews, the number seven signified completeness or eternity. It is also the number of heads on a dragon, which represents Satan. At this point, I want to ask a rhetorical question: If God uses a symbol one way and Satan uses it another way, who do you think had it first? Clearly God did, because Satan always copies and perverts what God does, and God doesn't "borrow" anything from Satan.

The same thing goes for the all-seeing eye, the pentagram, Ursa Major, and the other symbols you mentioned. I won't go into all of them, but I just want to point out the significance of Ursa Major. Ursa Major is a constellation used by ancient and modern navigators in the Northern hemisphere to locate the North Star. If you line up the two stars farthest from the "handle" or "tail" of the constellation, they point right at the North Star, which is the only star in the sky that doesn't move throughout the night or throughout the year. It is the constant. It is the star by which navigators chart their course. Do you see where I am going with this? God and Jesus Christ are represented by the North Star because they are unchanging, and we chart our course through life by them. Ursa Major represents the temple because the temple points us to God. That's what we see when we look at Ursa Major, and the symbol holds no Satanic connotation for us whatsoever. If God sees it as a representation of the devil only, why did He put it in the sky?

All of the other things that you mentioned testify of Christ to me in one way or another, not the devil.

Egyptians:

Mormons don't believe that Egyptians are Satanists. We believe that they, like many other civilizations, had the complete Gospel at one time and lost it bit by bit until they were worshiping all sorts of gods. Side by side with their somewhat intact symbols (the all-seeing eye, etc.) was other things they had added on. I don't think its fair for you to say that Egyptian religious practice was satanic. The all-seeing eye was called "the eye of Horus" by the Egyptians. Just because they called their god something different than what you call yours does not make them Satanists.

You asked whether Mormons need handshakes to get into heaven. My answer is that this is another thing that is symbolic only and not to be taken literally.

I hope you don't mind if I quote you for the next part of my response. You said

"If it is the case that the wonderful Lord God sent a prophet to us who was a superstitious, occultist, dark arts practicing, satan-leaning, pagan worshipping then I really do despair!! That being the case, rather God is somebody that is really akin to satanic dogmatism and is in a sense polytheistic, OR Joseph smith isn't a prophet, and he is just some fella who tells tall tales about the God of the bible."

Which sounds like you are wanting me to try and convince you that Mormonism is true, which is not why I am participating in this conversation. If you want convincing, find those missionaries. I do want to answer your description of Joseph Smith though.

"Superstitious"

This is a word that people often use to make a person's personal beliefs seem less valid than their own. I would put the question back to you, Louie. How many people have called the your personal practice of prayer a "superstition"?

"Occultist"

The word "occult" means "hidden". Christ spoke often of mysteries and hidden things to be revealed. Besides that, "occult" also refers to Satanism, which is something I hopefully answered well enough earlier. Likewise with "Dark arts practicing, Satan leaning, pagan worshipping". This sounds like name-calling, which is something that really won't lead us to any further understanding of each others views.

Joseph's charm or talisman


Most LDS and non-LDS scholars now doubt the claim that Joseph carried a "Jupiter Talisman" and had it with him at the time of his death. However, if he did have one, it wouldn't surprise me for this reason: Joseph was 14 when he first told people that he had seen God. From then on he claimed visits by angels, access to ancient records and artifacts, revelations, visions, and all sorts of other similar things. He had no prejudices against folk religions and obscure religious practices, so God spoke to him from many directions. In his zeal to receive more truth from whatever source, Joseph looked for it from any source he could think of, including (as Joseph would be the first to admit) from things like charms, etc. In his writings, Joseph emphasizes prayer, meditation (or "pondering"), and righteous living as methods of receiving revelation, and in some cases, he writes about he was commanded not to continue using certain other methods of receiving revelation. Later in his life Joseph also studied ancient languages and writings. He was an explorer. He was not a perfect person, and not even a perfect theologian, but he did his best, and that is all that God requires, even from prophets. Mormons follow Joseph's example and look for truth on many fronts. We are encouraged to educate ourselves about other religions and cultures, and also about science and philosophy so that we can receive truth from whatever source God has seen fit to reveal it from. We do not practice folk religions or any of the other world religions, but we are not afraid of them either.

You said that you would despair if God sent a prophet such as Joseph Smith. My answer is, How do you feel about God sending no prophet at all? But again this is getting into the realm of me trying to convince you, which is not my job.

The Pentagram:

This is a quote from the wikipedia article "pentagram", which contains this section on the pentagram's recorded association with Christianity

quote:

"Christianity

The pentagram was used as a Christian symbol for the five senses,[10] and if the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, it can be taken as a symbol of health (from Latin salus).[citation needed]

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolise the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[11]

The pentagram figured in a heavily symbolic Arthurian romance:[11] it appears on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th century poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. As the poet explains, the five points of the star each have five meanings: they represent the five senses, the five fingers, the five wounds of Christ,[12] the five joys that Mary had of Jesus (the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Assumption), and the five virtues of knighthood which Gawain hopes to embody: noble generosity, fellowship, purity, courtesy, and compassion.

Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.[11]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has traditionally used pentagrams and five-pointed stars in Temple architecture, particularly the Nauvoo Illinois Temple[13] and the Salt Lake Temple. These symbols derived from traditional morning star pentagrams that are no longer commonly used in mainstream Christianity.[14]"

end quote.

Thanks for your questions, and let me know if I missed any.

TR